Candace Nassar

Well, welcome, everyone. We’re continuing our month-long series on Peacemaking. And today I’m talking with Donna Jones, the author of the book Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life: A Biblical Guide for Graceful Communication and Lasting Resolution. It focuses on the important theme of constructive communication, expressing thoughts, feelings, and opinions with grace, truth, and without any regrets. I’ve read it, and I think it is a book that everyone should have on their shelf. In fact, I’ve been recommending it to all my people, including my adult children. And although I’ve been married 33 years, I still underlined a bunch of valuable tips and insights that I thought, “Oh, my gosh, that is dead on.” Donna is a national speaker, church planter, pastor’s wife, and self-described (and I love this) “Bible explainer”. It’s so good. She’s spoken all over the country, and she is the host to the Week That’s Just What I Needed podcast. She’s written several other books and Bible studies and is passionate about equipping others to know, love, and follow God in their real everyday lives. She and her husband, JP, make their home in Southern California. We are so privileged to have her on our show today.

Candace Nassar

Welcome, Donna.

Donna Jones

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s my privilege to be here.

Candace Nassar

So thankful, so grateful. And I love Southern California. As I said when we met, I lived in San Diego a while back, and you said you’re from Orange County. So of course, I know right where that is. Our daughters, apparently, went to Biola University at the same time. So we’ll see if they know each other. That would be so amazing. So where do your children live now?

Donna Jones

Well, two of our kids live 10 minutes from us. So our kids are all young adults, but two of them live about 10 minutes from us. And then our son lives in Redondo Beach, about an hour from us. So everybody’s pretty close. Everybody’s still here in Southern California, which is great.

Candace Nassar

That’s great. That is great. Yeah, I have two kids here in Austin, where I live in Austin, Texas, but one lives in New York City, and I don’t like that. She loves it. So what are you going to say? What are you going to do? What are you going to do?

Donna Jones

That’s right.

Candace Nassar

Yeah. All right. Well, let’s talk about the book, which I am just so excited about. What motivated you? Why did you decide to write this book on conflict?

Donna Jones

Such a great question, Candace, because who wants to set about writing a book on conflict? I mean, not too many people, right? What happened is that I started writing a book about how to have better relationships, healthier relationships. And I wasn’t into it very long, and I realized, oh, wait a minute. The reason we don’t have better relationships is largely due to the presence of conflict in our lives and how we deal with it. Everybody knows this. Your listeners are all going to resonate with this. Relationships generally clip along fine, and they’re a source of great joy. But when conflict is in the mix and it’s unresolved, we literally are consumed by it. We think about what he said, what we said, what we wish we’d said. We’re tormented by guilt. We don’t know how to handle it. We want it to just go away. And it doesn’t matter whether it’s our relationship with our spouse or our children or our friends. This is just all-encompassing. So I figured, since this is the thing that trips us up from having better relationships, why not look at what God’s word says and get uber practical and figure out how we are to deal with conflict?

Donna Jones

So that’s how the book came to be.

Candace Nassar

And it is so practical. And of course, you weave scripture all the way through and how Jesus talked about handling conflict. And it’s really incredible how much teaching he does on it, because obviously he knows that. But he tells us to love our neighbor as ourself, but he knows that that is going to be a really difficult thing. And so he speaks about it and gives us tips constantly, and you weave all that into the book, which is just so good. So I’m so glad you wrote it. And so how do you believe conflict can serve as a platform for personal development?

Donna Jones

Yeah, well, it really can. And most people don’t really think about this, because when we are in conflict, we tend to look at the other person. If they just wouldn’t say that. If they just wouldn’t do that. If they would just listen to me, what they did, that hurt my feelings. What they did, that was wrong. In many cases, we’re right when we’re thinking about other people. Sometimes their behavior is wrong or their words are hurtful. But the reality is we can’t do one thing to change another person. That’s where we go sideways. Because we tend to think, I can’t be happy in this relationship or we can’t have a good relationship, or unless the other person changes. And so we set about to change the other person, which, of course, is a crazy maker. So instead, we have to say, “Time out. I need to look at myself first. I can change myself. I can change how I show up in this relationship. I can change how I communicate in this relationship.” And then by doing that, then I actually end up growing, whether or not the other person changes. It can actually serve to be a really good avenue for personal growth.

Donna Jones

But also, one of the things I repeat in the book a lot, as you probably remember, is that the reason so many of us think conflict is bad is because we never learned to see how conflict could turn out good.

Candace Nassar

Yes.

Donna Jones

And when it’s handled right, then it actually can create more closeness between two people, and it can serve to resolve some of those unspoken things that have been getting in the way from real intimacy. So if you can handle conflict right, man, it has the potential to be game-changing and relationship-altering.

Candace Nassar

Absolutely. Yes. I love how you talk in the book, you said you gave the example of going to the eye doctor, when you had cataracts as a young woman, and you said, “Normal”. He said to you, because you were struggling, (“I don’t have cataracts.”) “Normal doesn’t always mean healthy.” So let’s talk about that for a second, because you said that many of us don’t know how to handle conflict. It’s never been taught to us. It wasn’t modeled well for us. And so we just respond in particular ways just out of habit. But that doesn’t mean that it’s healthy. So, let’s talk about that for a second.

Donna Jones

Yeah. And that was such an, I mean, excuse the pun, but it was such an eye-opening truth for me when he said that, because I just kept defending myself, “I see fine. I see clearly. I promise it’s all good.” Finally, he just looked at me and he said, “Donna, just because it’s normal for you doesn’t mean it’s healthy.” In the same way with conflict, maybe we grew up in our family of origin where conflict was bad. We had a mom that just wanted to keep the peace at all costs. She just acquiesced. She didn’t speak her mind. Or maybe we grew up in a home where people just tiptoed around all these kinds of issues, and we never talked about the elephant in the room. But everybody knows the elephant was in the room. Or maybe we grew up in a family that just exploded. They wanted to get things out, but the way they got things out was by slam doors and raise voices. We come into marriage and we come into parenting, and our conflict styles, that’s all we know. Sometimes, interestingly, our conflict style is in opposition to the way our family of origin did conflict.

Donna Jones

Maybe we were raised where everybody screamed and we were like, I am not going to do that. We take the opposite extreme, excuse me, and we think, “Okay, well, I’m never going to get upset. I’m never going to do that with my kids because my mom lost her temper with me all the time. I’m never going to do that.” And as a result, maybe we don’t address some things with our kids that we need to in a healthy way. So, it can manifest itself in many different ways. This idea that what’s normal to us doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy.

Candace Nassar

Absolutely. And I love the… You give the conflict styles in the book, and I found it so fascinating because I’ve had counseling. I’ve been through counseling because I had a crazy dysfunctional upbringing myself. But I never actually thought about the way you’ve put this on paper. And when I saw the competitor, that’s what I grew up with. I grew up with two competitors that were constantly arguing. And like you just said, it was modeled for me to get it out so I don’t avoid, but I don’t handle it necessarily in an effective way. I’m the minority, I believe. I believe that most people are conflict avoiders, but maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know. What do you think?

Donna Jones

Yeah. Now, that would be interesting to study. I don’t know the answer to that. I do know in the book, I have what I call the conflict continuum. And on one side are the avoiders, and on the other side are the attackers, and neither of those are healthy because they don’t fix anything. The sweet spot in the middle where Jesus wants us to land is to be an addresser. So we’re not avoidant, we’re not attackers, we are addressers. And that’s where we’re going, because if we can address issues for the avoiders. And in the book, I talk about, “Okay, this is how you do it.” What if you’re an avoider? Then this is how you actually move forward to start addressing some of these issues that you know need to be addressed. Or what if you’re an attacker? How do you take into consideration the way you actually communicate what you want to communicate?

Candace Nassar

Yes, you gave great tips all throughout the book on how to fix some of your issues. But first, just understanding what those issues are. So that was really good. You talk about the most important quality necessary for handling conflict in a healthy way. What is that quality? Why is it important?

Donna Jones

Yes. Okay, this right here is the game changer. When most people think about handling conflict well, they think about some skill. It’s an action, something that I need to say, something that I need to do, or something that I need to not say or not do. It’s some action. But actually, the real key to handling conflict well is not an action, it’s an attitude. And the attitude is humility.

Candace Nassar

Yes.

Donna Jones

Because humility says, This is me and you. Against the problem, not me against you as you are the problem. And I think being humble is largely misunderstood, even in the Christian community. Because some of us, we tether being humble to humiliation. And so we’re in the midst of a conflict, and we think, “Okay, yeah, I know. The Bible says I’m supposed to be humble. But if I’m humble right now, I’m going to get walked all over. I’m going to be a doormat, and there is just no way. I’m not going to do that.” You just don’t get it. You need to stand up for yourself. So I’m not going to be humble because I don’t want to be a doormat. But we can’t tether being humble with humiliation, because being humble does not make us a doormat for exploitation. It makes us a doorway for conversation.

Candace Nassar

That’s perfect. Yes. And you also said, The power. It enables us to handle conflict in a way that helps rather than hurts. And I really love that because it’s our perspective, right? Because like you were saying, we look at the other person as the problem. But if we’re humbly accepting that there’s something I’m doing here and just stop at that point and reframe it, that is huge in managing the whole situation. So I really like that.

Donna Jones

Yeah. And I think, too, that the misunderstanding about humility is that a humble person doesn’t fully speak their mind or a humble person can’t get angry. And that’s not true. Humble people still speak their mind. They still have opinions. They still are passionate about things. They’re still even angry. But it’s the way they communicate those things that takes other people into account.

Candace Nassar

That’s the key.

Donna Jones

We take other people into account.

Candace Nassar

That’s so good. So why is it important that we deal with conflict in a way that honors God?

Donna Jones

Well, a couple of reasons. Number one, because as just basic, as believers, the apostle Paul said, “I make it my goal to please Him.” And so if we’re believers, we want to please the Lord. That’s number one. Number two is that it brings us the biggest level of peace. I think that’s really a huge component. We’re motivated to have peace ourselves. But the way we handle conflict is either going to bring us more peace or more problems, period. Why not handle it in a way that’s going to bring more peace and less problems? In fact, the book is called Healthy Conflict, Peaceful Life, because when you handle conflict in a healthy way, you’ll have a more peaceful life, more peaceful family, more peaceful marriage, more peaceful friendships, more peaceful soul, frankly. Yeah.

Candace Nassar

And then you also talk about unity in the body. I thought that was really good because as Christians, so often we don’t handle our anger well. And there’s the scripture that says, “In your anger, do not sin.” And we, as Christians, often think, “Well, that just means bury my anger.” But you point out that that’s not what that’s saying. It’s saying you’re going to be angry because it’s an emotion, but do not sin. And so that’s the whole thing about how you handle it, how you react. And I love that! So often. I’ve been part of a church split where the conflict was handled so poorly, and I really resonated with your story about wanting to burn the church down.

Donna Jones

That was pretty vulnerable, wasn’t it? Yes.

Candace Nassar

And it was so good. And you wove it all the way through the book, even to the end of explaining how God freed you from all that to the point where you have those strong relationships now. You’re speaking with that church. I mean, God restored it all, which is what He can do when we do things the right way. But it really impacted me as I thought about how conflict is so poorly handled often in the church. And I just love the way you dealt with that in the book. So that’s just one of my encouragements for people to get the book and read that because people get hurt by churches. They get hurt by people in churches. And sometimes it drives people away from the church altogether. And that’s not what is… I mean, we’re called to fellowship with one another. We need each other. And that conflict is always going to happen, right?

Donna Jones

Yeah. And I just want to speak into somebody that is maybe experiencing that right now. Okay, I’m a pastor’s wife, and I became a Christian as a child. So I’ve lived in Jesus for a very long time. But when we went through our extreme church hurt experience, I very specifically remember thinking, “Wow, I’m really grounded in my relationship with the Lord.” But if I wasn’t, I would drown right now. It’s so hurtful. And if you’re experiencing that, you’re not the only one. And I want to just offer you compassion, but also offer you hope and tell you to cling to the Lord. Do not walk away from the Lord, because if you will just hang on, He can redeem what you’re going through. He can teach you. He can grow you. He can restore you. And just press in. When you want to lean out, when you want to run away, press in. Just press in harder. Make that choice.

Candace Nassar

I love that. So good. Yeah. I mean, it’s part of just the sin, the fallen world that we live in. In the church, they’re going to sin, and they’re going to do things that hurt us. But there is a way to have healthy conflict resolution. And so I love how you address all that. And one of the great things that you talked about was just how to be a good listener, which is so important. And it dawned on me that a lot of us don’t know how to listen. And you said something that really hit me. You said listening doesn’t just mean sitting there quiet. It means engaging and asking questions.

Donna Jones

Yeah. And this, I think, is particularly helpful when we are dealing with messy emotions, both ours and other people’s, especially as your listeners are all moms. We’re all moms. And so we know what it’s like to be dealing with a child with a lot of big emotions, messy emotions. And I tell a story in the book where my daughter came home and she had a really bad day and had expressed it to one of her friends, and she thought she was going to get sympathy and empathy. Instead, she got, “Well, welcome to real life.” There was just no sympathy. She came home and she goes, Mom, “I wish you’d been here earlier. You listen.” I remember thinking, “Oh, wow, that’s a huge compliment.” But then I replayed some of my earlier mom experiences, and I realized I didn’t always listen. This was something that I had to learn, largely because a lot of times I got it wrong. I made things worse rather than better without even knowing. I didn’t mean to, but this is what I would do, Candace. My kids would come home with some big emotions, frustration, anger, upset with a friend at school, or maybe with a sibling or something going on, and I would want to fix it immediately.

Donna Jones

“Why don’t you do that? Or when I was a kid, I did this, or I know how you feel,” I would want to fix it, or I would dismiss it by saying things like, “Oh, you don’t feel that way, or it’s not that big of a deal, or don’t be such a drama queen, or you’ll get over it, or look on the bright side, all of those things.” But what ends up happening is when we diminish or we dismiss messy emotions, what happens is the other person escalates those messy emotions. They escalate the conflict because when they’re expressing something to us, what they really want is to be understood. So when we don’t listen, and side note, listening does not equal agreement. Listening just means listening. And listening to understand. We don’t have to agree with our husband’s perspective, our friend’s perspective, our child’s perspective, whomever is bringing these messy emotions. But what we do need to understand is that they want to be understood. If we can just listen to understand that instead of escalating the conflict. That de-escalates the conflict. If we don’t listen, something happens in the mind of a person where when they’re not being understood, they go, “Wait, this person is not getting it, so I guess I need to escalate it more.”

Donna Jones

I guess I need to get louder. I guess I need to get more dramatic. I guess I need to slam the door really hared. Maybe then she’ll get it, and she’ll understand how important this is to me. If we still don’t get it, something clicks in their minds and they go, “Okay, she’s never going to get it.” So they end it. It’s “escalate or end”. When a person ends it, they say things like, “Okay, just forget it. You don’t get it. You don’t understand. You’re never going to understand.” And then when we try to get them to open up, “No, no, no. Tell me how you feel. Tell me what you mean.” They’d say, “Forget it. Forget it. This conversation is over.” So it’s “escalate or end”, right? Which is a horrible way for conflict to go.

Candace Nassar

Go ahead. I’m sorry. I was just going to say, you talk about the silent treatment and the difference. That’s one of the ways that people handle conflict, is just going into shutdown mode and not talking, thinking that that’s going to help the situation. There’s all kinds of ways that we can “escalate”, (quote-unquote), but it’s definitely not healthy. That’s really good. Listening is a key, don’t you think, to conflict resolution?

Donna Jones

My goodness, yes. Here’s the interesting thing, because you brought up the silent treatment. Did you know that shouting and the silent treatment are two sides of the same coin?

Candace Nassar

Yeah, that makes sense.

Donna Jones

They’re just different ways of saying, “Hear what I want you to hear, see what I want you to see. Understand when I’m trying to get across to you.” One person just does it aggressively, the other person does it passively.

Candace Nassar

Passive-aggressive.

Donna Jones

Yeah. It’s the two sides of the same coin. We’re just trying to get the person to see that we’re upset.

Candace Nassar

Yeah. So another great tip that I think is so important, especially for women, was you went into Matthew 18:15, which is we cannot talk about conflict resolution unless we point out how Jesus told us to deal with it when people hurt us. So let’s talk about that for a few minutes.

Donna Jones

Yes. Well, that’s the passage where Jesus says, “If your brother or sister sins against you, go just between the two of you and point out their fault.” And if you break it down, there’s really four steps of how to deal with a difficult situation where you feel like somebody has wronged you. And those four steps are 1.) Go. Most of us stop right here because we think things like, “Well, I don’t know when I would go. I don’t know what I would say if I would go. You don’t understand. That person would never listen to me even if I went.” So, we stop before we even put step one of Jesus’s instructions into practice. And what we often do is that we don’t go to the person, we go to other people. So we go to our friend, and we tell our friend what the problem is, and we think, “Well, maybe she’ll say something to that other friend, and then that other friend will know that I’m upset.

Candace Nassar

It sounds ridiculous when you’re saying that, but somehow that’s exactly what we think.

Donna Jones

Yeah. Or let’s just say it’s with a family, a family member, and it’s something with our sister. We say something to our mom, because if we say it to our mom, maybe our mom will say something to our sister, or we triangulate these relationships because we don’t want to go. Then we get tripped up because we wonder why we’re perpetuating all of these problems, and we have this ongoing conflict in our families and in our friendships. The first step is to go, and then it says 2.)Go privately, just between the two of you. This is just so beautiful because, again, if we’re not talking to the person, in all likelihood, we’re talking about the person, and that just never goes well. That’s right. We go privately, and what that does is that communicates respect. It’s like, I’m not talking about this to anyone else. This is you and me. And a humble person, remember, thinks about the other person. And so that communicates respect. And so we go just privately, the two of us, and it says, 3.)Point out their fault. And at this point, some people that maybe are on the more attacking side are like, “Yippie, now I get to tell this person all the ways that they hurt my feelings and they wronged me.”

Donna Jones

But that’s not what it’s talking about. When Jesus says point out their fault, that “point out”, it is saying, give concrete evidence, concrete example of one thing that was the offense. Just give an example. See, again, a lot of us, we drop hints like breadcrumbs. I’m not going to just say exactly what it was. I’m going to drop some hints and just hope you remember the situation that hurt my feelings or that I felt was wrong. Well, then the other person may or may not get it. So that’s why Jesus says, “Okay, just give a concrete example of what it was.” And he says, “So point out their fault.”, And that’s singular, not plural. Yes. I love that. So we don’t like, Dump truck 25 things that this person has done over the last three years that have hurt us or wronged us. So we go, we go privately, we point out the fault. And then Jesus says, and this is so genius, If they listen to you. And that word if allows for contingency. Because Jesus doesn’t say when they listen to you, because they may not. So he says, if then you’ve won your brother.

Donna Jones

Then, now, okay, you’ve talked about the situation. There’s been apologies, there’s been communication, there’s been understanding, there’s been reconciliation. Well, then you’ve won your brother. And now that issue is no longer an issue, and you don’t need to bring it up again. But if they don’t, then Jesus goes on to say, 4.)Take somebody else with you. And then he gives it some other indications of what to do if it doesn’t go well the first time. But it’s step by step, and it’s literally the pathway for the best possible outcome when we’re dealing with conflict.

Candace Nassar

Yeah, it’s so beautiful. And again, you’re talking about not just making the fault a single issue and dealing with those, because I love how you said that people build brick walls. If they let those issues continue, they don’t address the issue, and that happens again and again or other things compound it. And then suddenly you’ve got this huge wall, and then the relationship is very difficult to recover. And so I love how you said, let’s take it one brick at a time and not let those things build up.

Donna Jones

Yeah. Because to your point, in the book, I talk about this, as you said, this one brick. So let’s just suppose, Candace, you and I are having a conflict. You said something that hurts my feelings. So that’s a brick laid down between you and me. If I don’t deal with that, if I just say, “Okay, you know what? That really hurt my feelings. I don’t know why she said that. But you know what? I have to go to Target. I have to take the kids to school. I have to do my thing.” And I just forget about it. If you never say something that hurts my feelings, that might be okay because it’s just one little brick. But if you then do something else that hurts me or wrongs me, it is another brick, and it’s laid upon that first brick. Then if I still don’t address it, it’s another brick, and then another brick. And pretty soon, I have a wall between you and me of unaddressed issues. And then that’s when people look at their relationship and they go, there’s no hope. Because they don’t even see the person. All they see is the wall of problems, the wall of hurt, the wall of disappointment, the wall of wrong.

Donna Jones

And so that’s why it’s important to address things when they happen, when they’re small things, and then they don’t become big things, and they don’t create barriers. So good.

Candace Nassar

And then you also have a provision in there for… You’re talking about go and the steps that Jesus gives us in Matthew 18, but there are certain circumstances when the conflict is something that we shouldn’t go on, and you give a provision for that, too. And so you want to talk about that for a second?

Donna Jones

Yeah. Well, there’s two, and they’re on the different ends of the spectrum. Sometimes they’re just small things. And there’s actually a chapter in the book called Should I be Mad? And it’s big things, small things, and everything in between. And there’s just some things that… The best, better part of wisdom is just to let it go. It’s just a dumb little thing that… It was a careless mistake that somebody made. They forgot something or they did something, and you just let it go. But we have to know what are the big things and what are the small things? That’s one end of the spectrum, where we just maybe do not address something. If it’s just a small, one-time thing, But on the other end where we don’t go is if there’s abuse involved. Maybe you have gone in the past and it hasn’t gone really well, and you just are the recipient of the other person’s venom. There are some boundaries that we need to set up there and put those in place. And that’s wise, too. Jesus would say, “Be as innocent as a dove, but as wise as a serpent.” Because Jesus knows people’s hearts.

Donna Jones

We are always to be innocent. We’re to do the right thing. But we also are to be wise, Because there are some people out there that will just frankly hurt us. So that aspect as well.

Candace Nassar

Yeah. So I wanted to bring that out because I thought that was super important. And so as we start to wrap up, we’re thinking about as we resolve this conflict, or even if we don’t, forgiveness is such an important call that Jesus has given to us about when relationships don’t work the way they should or we are hurt or whatever. So why do you think that’s so important? Let’s talk about restoration and forgiveness.

Donna Jones

Yes. Well, it’s important because we’re commanded as believers to “forgive as we’ve been forgiven”, but that does not mean it’s right? Right. Anybody who’s been deeply wounded understands this. I would say that’s probably 100% of us. It’s hard. I’m going to go back, Candace, since you referenced it, to the situation where my husband and I were just unwitting players in this church-hurt experience where the church that my husband was on staff at ended up splitting. And it was so painful. But I knew I’d been called to forgive. I just didn’t know how. And one day, I just tiptoed my way into vulnerability with our worship pastor’s wife.  I said, “I know I’m supposed to forgive, but I don’t know how. I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know if I can. I know I should. I want to because Jesus tells me that I need to, but I don’t even know where to begin.” And I will never forget, she placed her hands on my shoulder and she turned to face me eye-to-eye. And then she looked at me with complete compassion. And she said, “Donna, the fact that you want to please the Lord, or that you want to forgive, pleases the Lord.”

Candace Nassar

Yes.

Donna Jones

And he will show you how. And that was so healing to me for her to say. The fact that you just want to learn how to do it, even if you’re not there yet, that’s the first step. So I would say to anybody who’s really struggling right now because you’re wounded, and maybe you’re even in the point where you’re like, “Well, that just makes me mad that I have to forgive. I’m not even there yet.” Maybe you’re there because sometimes it just seems like I feel like I’m giving them a free pass. I would say, just pray for the want to. Just start there. And then realize, number two, that forgiveness is not giving the other person a free pass to hurt you again. That’s not what it is. And it’s not even saying it’s not a big deal. Because the reality is that what they did to you was such a big deal that it cost Jesus his life because it was sin. So it’s a big deal, and God knows it’s a big deal. So forgiveness is understanding those two things. And then I would say this, and I write about this in the book, Candace. When I was writing this chapter, I felt like God just downloaded this visual image to me.

Donna Jones

And it was to picture the issue that hurt you like opening the palm of your hand and picture the issue that hurt you laying in the middle of the palm of your hand, and then close your fingers around it. All of your fingers represent a reason that you’re still hanging on to that hurt, to that woundedness. It could be, “What they did was wrong. They skipped off to a better life and left me with all the baggage. They never apologized. I tried to do the right thing, and they were sinful, and it feels like they got away with it.” Whatever those reasons are, name them out loud. And as you name them, just unfold those fingers one by one until that offense is laid bare in the palm of your hand. And then turn your hand over and let that offense drop into the nail-scarred hands of Jesus. That’s forgiveness.

Candace Nassar

That is just beautiful. And exactly what I think a lot of us need to hear, it’s a process. Forgiveness is a process. Yes, it is. And you’re talking about how it took you years to get to it, get to that spot. It did. Well, I can’t thank you enough, Donna. This has been very, very good. I just, again, love this book. How can our listeners connect with you and get a copy of the book?

Donna Jones

Yes. Well, first of all, I would love to connect with your listeners as a fellow mom. We’re just all in this together. So you can get a copy of the book, Everywhere books are sold. It’s on Amazon, christianbooks. Com, Barnes & Noble, Faith Gateway, just everywhere. I think it’s even online at Target and Walmart. So everywhere books are Sold. You can also get it on my website. I have a lot of free resources, by the way, on my website. You can take a quiz to find out what your particular conflict style is. That’s fun. And there are some other free resources there. And my website is DonnaJones. Org. And then I’d love to connect with you on Instagram. I’m at Donna A. Jones. And I have to put the A in there because with the name like Jones, Donna Jones, you have to have something to distinguish yourself. So it’s @DonnaAJones. So that’s where I am.

Candace Nassar

Great. And we’ll put that in the show notes as well. Great.

Donna Jones

Thank you.

Candace Nassar

Well, thank you so much. And I hope that you have a great rest of your day. And we talk again soon.

Donna Jones

I do, too. Thank you so much, Candace. It’s been a pleasure.

Candace Nassar

Absolutely.

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