Candace Nassar (00:00)
Well, good morning, everyone. It’s so great to be with you guys today. Welcome back. I have some very special guests with me, Brad and Marilyn Rhodes, and they wrote the book, The Grace Marriage. They have a curriculum. I love their work and I’m excited to share with you all of their wisdom and insight. So welcome to the show, guys.
Marilyn (00:22)
thank you for having us.
Brad (00:23)
Thank you. Thank you.
Candace Nassar (00:25)
Yeah, it’s going to be a great one. I’d like to start with your story. What led you to create Grace Marriage and how did your own journey shape the ministry?
Marilyn (00:37)
You want to start Brad or you want me to?
Brad (00:38)
Marilyn? Yeah, I’ll start. I’ll go. I’ll let you pick it up, but I’ll start. We got married in 96 and couldn’t imagine any problems. mean, dating was bliss. I couldn’t believ e Marilyn existed much less she liked me. She was everything I wanted to be and wasn’t and had lived life like I wish I’d lived life. So we couldn’t imagine any issues and we got married and it just was a train wreck.
I mean, our first year of marriage was like, I mean, Marilyn cried all the time. I was confused. I thought I was doing great. Marilyn thought I was doing terrible. It was just, we didn’t understand. We didn’t know how to be married. We really didn’t. And then God moved mightily in our marriage, showed Marilyn the sufficiency of Christ, probably saved me. I thought I was saved, but it was through our marriage that my sin became HD clear. My selfishness was revealed. My selfish ambition was revealed. My thoughtlessness was revealed.
Candace Nassar (01:28)
You
Brad (01:34)
So I’ll let Marilyn pick it up from there. But our marriage just really came alive. I mean, it’s just like, from God moving, we just started loving being married. And then, Marilyn, I’ll let you pick it up from there on how we ended up in the, how a civil litigation attorney became full-time marriage guy.
Marilyn (01:39)
you
Marilyn (01:48)
Yeah, so, well, like Brad said, we started out a train wreck, but it’s because we really bought into the world’s lies that marriage is about me. It’s about me being fulfilled. And that is not. God designed marriage because it’s a beautiful institution that works for His glory and exemplifies Christ in the church. And so we were both miserable because it was two selfish people looking for something for marriage that is not.
Candace Nassar (01:55)
yeah.
Candace Nassar (02:01)
Mm.
Marilyn (02:14)
what God makes it about. So about a year in, I was broken. Because I had been on this roller coaster like Brad said, I was crying. I went to him and I said, will you forgive me? I’ve put my hope in you. My hope is in Christ. I don’t need you to have joy. I don’t need you to make me feel special about me, to feel important. Like that comes from Christ alone and I’m sorry. And I’m going to start loving you the way God’s calling me to love you. Will you forgive me? And I did. I just started asking the Lord, OK, what does it look like?
Candace Nassar (02:26)
Mm.
Marilyn (02:43)
for me to love Brad as my husband the way you’re calling me to. And the Lord transformed our marriage and worked on Brad’s heart. And so because we had such a bad year, and went to really thriving and had people ahead of us, mentoring us and showing us what a good marriage looks like, which is huge and important.
We were involved with youth ministry and the youth started asking us to do their premarital counseling. And we were like, we’ve never done it before. But if you’re, you know, okay, come into our house after we put our kids to bed, we’ll do the research. And so we started doing premarital groups and then we had a wait list for that. And then our church asked to do marriage groups. And before long,
Candace Nassar (03:09)
Mmm.
Marilyn (03:23)
they asked Brad to be the marriage pastor at our church and we’re counseling couples in crisis. We’re doing premarital counseling and we realize we’re missing the marriage. There’s no what we our church we don’t have anything to just help couples every day be married well. So then Brad said what if we write a curriculum and just try this with couples in our church.
Candace Nassar (03:40)
Mmm.
Brad (03:47)
Yeah, yeah, it’s more of a discipleship process. I kind of saw the church did pre marital counseling and crisis counseling, but they had no strategy for marriage. And then I realized most marriages has no strategy for the individual marriage. It’s just like we’re married, we go along side by side and hope it works. Well, and that’s what we do. We get we get married, life gets more complex, but we’re because we love each other, it’s just going to work. And it is nothing throws without a strategy. And that’s why discipleship sanctification and I saw
Marilyn (03:49)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (03:53)
Right, right.
Candace Nassar (04:00)
gosh.
Marilyn (04:09)
That’s right.
Brad (04:11)
I thought this has to be the dumbest model I’ve ever seen in my life. We do pre-marital in crisis and we do nothing for the marriage and we wonder why marriage has declined for 50 years. And then the research show that like 72 % of churches had no marriage ministry, 80 % of churches spent not $1 on marriage ministry. then churches sought, we’re the salt and light of the world. And if we’re not being salt and light in marriage and we’re wondering why it has then declined, duh. So it’s like, so I felt led.
to leave the law practice in 2015 and praying that God would move mightily, that every Bible-believing church would have a marriage discipleship process, and marriage would be as primary as youth ministry and children’s ministry ever was, because you can’t win children and youth and lose marriage. And you can’t win marriage if you don’t put anything into marriage. So by God’s kindness, we’ve spent the last 10 years engaging churches to launch ongoing marriage ministries. Now, it’s not really as much a curriculum as discipleship process that church had been.
Brad (05:19.746)
that the church adopts. So we equip churches with ongoing marriage ministers. We have a seven year process that couples invest consistently over long periods of time, because consistent investment over long periods of time produces growth. Quick, just conferences or six week studies, they’re good, but life takes you back over and you revert to previous norms. So that’s a little bit of our story.
Marilyn (05:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Candace Nassar (05:32)
Yeah, so, so powerful. You Marilyn, you said something that really stuck with me right away as you said that you were seeking the Lord after your very tough first year and you went to Brad and said, I don’t need you to fulfill me or make me happy. That’s really mature and incredible for a first, you know, young married person. What got you to that point?
Marilyn (05:57)
Well, I was miserable. I was at the point I thought, I sentenced to, is this it? Is this really all marriage is? Am I sentenced to a life of this? And I was really crying all that out to the Lord because I’m sensitive by nature and Brad was hurting my feelings and I felt lonely and he didn’t even realize and I just, I’m naturally an even-kill person.
But I was on this roller coaster based on what Brad was or wasn’t doing. And I realized I’ve put him in the place of God. God’s my hope, not Brad, not this Prince Charming that’s going to make me live happily ever after because it’s really not. is work. It’s beautiful, but it’s work and it’s self-sacrifice and it’s seeking to serve rather than be served. And so all of a sudden I was convicted that my focus had been completely selfish. And
Candace Nassar (06:26)
Mmm.
Candace Nassar (06:40)
Yeah.
Marilyn (06:47)
If Christ came to bring life to the full, He can bring me life to the full in a hard marriage. And so I just realized I had taken my eyes off the Lord and I can get back to this stable place if I just put my hope in Christ and not focus so much on what Brad is or isn’t doing and love Him the way I’m called to love Him and leave the work to God with Brad. So.
Candace Nassar (06:52)
That’s right.
Candace Nassar (07:03)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (07:08)
Yeah, that’s so powerful. just talking, you were talking about the sanctification process, both of you. I mean, I think that is the biggest lie that our culture tells us is that the TV and the movies, right? That marriage is going to have this, all these beautiful moments that are untouched by struggles or whatever. if they do, or then it’s the opposite. Like if problems come along, then you just leave.
Marilyn (07:12)
Hell yeah.
Marilyn (07:34)
Right.
Candace Nassar (07:35)
You know, but when we can shift our thinking that marriage is part of god sanctification process and that’s so much of what you build into grace marriage is just how to how to think of it that way and be self-sacrificing and just give that grace so so let’s jump in a little bit more and.
Marilyn (07:38)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (07:41)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (07:47)
Yes. Yes.
Brad (07:53)
He did funny on the movies thing how all the movies they end at the wedding day. They don’t show all the post wedding day stuff. So it’s like they’re all in each other, get married and then boom, they don’t show all the.
Marilyn (07:57)
Ha!
Marilyn (08:05)
Well, and I think we in every area of life we know it’s work. We know to parent is work. We know to have a skill or a talent. We have to hone that. We know with our jobs and every other area of life we know we have to work at it. But we believe this lie that our marriages should be fine without any work and if they’re not something’s wrong and we should bail. Like you said, that’s what the world will tell you but if we work at it…
Candace Nassar (08:10)
Mmm.
Candace Nassar (08:29)
Right.
Marilyn (08:32)
We shouldn’t be surprised that it’s sanctifying and it’s work. It can be beautiful, but it’s not just going to happen on autopilot.
Brad (08:40)
Well, scripture says, you get married, you will have much trouble. So I tell couples all the time, so you’re having much trouble. Well, you have a biblical marriage. I did, because the Bible says you got married and you’re having much trouble. Hey, it’s working. But the troubles, to your point, Candice, the troubles are for us to work through the troubles to be sanctified and grow in Jesus. If you had no troubles, you would have no growth.
Marilyn (08:47)
Hahaha
Candace Nassar (08:52)
you
Brad (09:02)
I didn’t have troubles in marriage. I wouldn’t have had to become more gentle. wouldn’t have had to become more selfless. I wouldn’t have had to do any of those things because I wouldn’t have had the troubles to overcome. But Marilyn, for some reason, Marilyn didn’t like selfish, rude and sharp. mean, I had to kind of… That’s kind of… Now I’m fake, not messy.
Candace Nassar (09:11)
Amen.
Candace Nassar (09:15)
And messy, I know you’re messy.
Marilyn (09:17)
Very much so.
Candace Nassar (09:56.095)
You’re self-sacrificing neat. you know, that’s good. gosh. Well, so great, great stuff. So let’s talk about grace because that’s so much of what you build into the book. I mean, grace-filled marriage. So you talk about grace in a whole new way. It’s just a powerful foundation for marriage. To me, love is the motivation. It’s the why.
Marilyn (09:26)
There you go.
Marilyn (09:37)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (09:43)
Mm.
Candace Nassar (09:49)
And grace is the how. I really feel like when we can learn to give grace to our spouse in all the different scenarios you guys talk about, it just changes everything. So why is grace the key to a thriving marriage?
Marilyn (09:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brad (10:06)
It’s because everybody sins. mean, first, John says, if you’re, you know, if everyone says that if you say you don’t sin, you’re lying. So the reality is I struggle. Maryland struggles. So if I sin and Maryland sins and we don’t get grace, sin has control, sin has dominion, sin has mastery. Romans 6:14, because there is there was one sinless. It was Jesus and it’s not us. And so if there’s sin and no grace, there’s division.
So grace is required for the unity piece. Just like last night we were on a date, my dad’s having some health problems and I’ve been, sometimes we’re really stressed and we don’t know we’re really stressed. And then we’re kind of sharp and we’re not fun and we’re not happy. And that was me last night, that’s me today. But we’re okay because Marilyn gets grace. Otherwise that just sets us up for a season of conflict. So we say grace to a marriage is like oil to an engine. It will not run without it.
Candace Nassar (10:42)
Mm.
Candace Nassar (10:56)
Mm-hmm.
Brad (11:01)
And at best, if you don’t understand grace, you’ll live in a peaceful coexistence without true connection. At worst, you’ll get divorced.
Marilyn (11:08)
Yeah, so and if our marriages are to be a picture of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Christ in the church, that’s the ultimate grace. Christ, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So if our marriages are to be pictures of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that means while I’m still a sinner, Brad’s gonna lay down his life for me, or while he’s still sins or struggling. So the grace, once we…
Candace Nassar (11:08)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (11:31)
really put legs on what does this look like in marriage, it changed everything. Even after that first year, we didn’t get grace early on and it was more of a performance-based marriage. We were trying hard and so you have what happens when, say Brad hurts my feelings because I’m sensitive by nature and so I’ll withdraw and I’m probably withhold myself from intimacy because my feelings are hurt and it causes, then he gets more frustrated.
So that sin, causes us to struggle for at least a couple weeks sometimes, or a little longer. But if you get Grace and he’s a little bit snappy or short, rather than me taking offense and moving away from Brad, if I’m like, man, like he’s struggling right. Like last night, he was not himself, but his dad. We had a heart procedure yesterday. And I realized he’s struggling right now. And I have a rescue mentality. Like I’m not gonna hold that sin against him.
Candace Nassar (12:16)
Mmm.
Marilyn (12:23)
I’m gonna move towards Him in love. We’re still gonna have a good date. I’m still gonna pursue Him because we’re not gonna hold our sin against each other. We’re just naturally in a performance-based world and we take that to our marriages. But when we put them under grace, you still struggle but you can laugh about it the next day. You get over things right away because you’re not holding this sin against each other. and now grace doesn’t mean…
Candace Nassar (12:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Candace Nassar (12:43)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (12:47)
if there’s abuse or infidelity or an ongoing issue, the most graceful thing you can do is address these because you’re just going to build walls. We talk about that in our book, what grace is, what grace is not. And there are times the most graceful thing I can do is go to Brad and say, Hey, I’m really struggling right now. And I want to talk to you about this because if we don’t work through this issue, I’m going to, I’m going to end up withdrawing from you. And there’s going to be a root of bitterness that grows and that’s not loving.
Candace Nassar (12:49)
Right.
Marilyn (13:17)
So grace, don’t hear me say in those instances, but in the day to day and in the extenuating circumstances, life’s hard. mean, health issues come, things come in our family, kids get sick, loss of parents, all these things. We’ve got to have grace to get through these hard times for each other.
Candace Nassar (13:36)
Amen. Amen.
Brad (13:37)
Yeah, and none of this, I mean, all spouses just wish their spouse would do and act and speak like we want them to. And they don’t. And they’re never going to. So either one, live frustrated the rest of your life, or two, accept the grace of Jesus and give it. I those are your two choices, you know? Because it’s, usually there are things about Maryland that would just make me mad inside, you know? And now they don’t make me mad inside because it’s just Maryland. And it doesn’t matter.
Marilyn (13:46)
That’s right.
Candace Nassar (13:46)
And they’re never going to.
Brad (14:05)
What I do, Marilyn’s Marilyn. You know, and the way she views life is different than the way I view life. And do I fully understand it all the time? No, but if I give grace, I can just fully enjoy Marilyn. If I don’t, it just starts gaining momentum on how it negatively impacts me.
Candace Nassar (14:07)
Mm.
Candace Nassar (14:21)
Yeah, it makes me think of I’ve done some work on attachment theory and it you know how we grew up and the things that we saw our parents do and how we related in our own families. All of that we bring that into our marriage right and so those are you guys talk about expectations in the book and I thought that was huge because we come into it were like okay this is the way it’s supposed to be this is the way he’s supposed to act and we also want to see our spouses really be like us.
Marilyn (14:33)
We do, yes.
Brad (14:33)
Yes.
Candace Nassar (14:49)
even though we usually marry the opposite, you know?
Marilyn (14:51)
That’s exactly right. Brad jokingly sometimes when I’m in that place and I’m really wanting to do things the way I’m doing things, he was like, if we could all be like you, then things would be great. And I’m like, amen. But actually that’s, I start laughing because I’m like, I don’t know.
Brad (14:51)
Yeah, it’s…
Brad (15:02)
Yeah, yeah, I her she wishes I came with a remote control, you know, but but not myself, but just to put legs on it, like Marilyn has a huge sense of duty. She loves to serve. She loves to that. And so a lot of things Marilyn feels like we need to do as a family, I don’t think we need to do. You know, like my son once told me that was mom always feel like we need to do stuff we don’t really need to do. I’m like, I’m like,
Candace Nassar (15:06)
you
Candace Nassar (15:29)
Mmm.
Brad (15:29)
I say, exactly Matthew, you get it. But the reality is, I don’t look at it through those goggles. So if I’m looking at it through it, have grace, I’ve got a loving, sacrificial wife that loves people fearlessly. And if I get my eyes off grace, I’ve got somebody that fatigues our family, makes us do too much, and we’re always running because of her fault. So it’s all on how you frame things. Is it grace or is it not grace?
Candace Nassar (15:56)
So good. Yeah, that perspective. and you have a chapter on grace in the day to day, which really impacted me. I mean, just thinking about was it was the story about the drawers with the man who whose wife never shut the drawers and and he would get so frustrated with that that it would just affect his whole demeanor with her.
Marilyn (16:02)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (16:12)
Yes.
Candace Nassar (16:18)
And I can understand that. And one time, you know, it became an issue that someone got hurt. but yet he decided I’m going to give her grace and I’m just going to start shedding the drawers and just realize that that’s just not her thing. And there’ll be other things that that I will do. Right. And he just started shedding the drawers and it just ended all of that stress.
Marilyn (16:38)
Yes. Yep.
Brad (16:38)
That’s Gary Chapman, know, the best selling offer of the, that’s the best selling author, that’s the best selling author in the entire world that had that same struggle. So it just shows it’s a battle for all of us.
Candace Nassar (16:41)
Ugh, how did I forget that?
Marilyn (16:44)
Nah.
Candace Nassar (16:49)
Amen. Yeah, for sure. Gosh. Well, go ahead. Yeah.
Marilyn (16:47)
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. It is. I was gonna say that’s a great story. It just puts legs on that so well, I think that he said, she said she’s the drawer opener and I’m the drawer closer. That’s what he said. So in that unconditional acceptance is the sweetest, safest place to be when you can get there. And I know that
Candace Nassar (16:57)
Mm-hmm. I really
Candace Nassar (17:03)
It’s so good.
Candace Nassar (17:10)
Yes.
Marilyn (17:13)
with my forgetfulness and my faults, this duty piece that I carry, when Brad loves me, despite all of that, is a sweet, safe place we want to be for each other in marriage.
Brad (17:25)
And we want to project our improvement on our spouse, like whatever we’re growing in or whatever we’re doing. Then we start seeing what they’re not doing, you know? And then we get for something like recently, I read a book called Managing Adult ADD, because maybe I struggle with it. so it has all these things. I started like, yeah, I’m like, well, Marilyn’s not doing these things. And no wonder every time I need to use her car, it takes her 10 minutes to find the key. And I’m like, babe,
Candace Nassar (17:34)
Mmm.
Candace Nassar (17:41)
Yeah
Brad (17:53)
The book said, just do this. And then she didn’t do that, Candace. She just kept, so, wear your keys. So they’re either in my purse, they’re in the drawer, they’re in the car, they’re in here. I said, I don’t wanna look seven places. But as soon as I start thinking like how I wish she would act, how I wish she would do things, then it starts putting seeds of frustration. If I just say, I’m gonna simplify it. I’m just gonna love Marilyn as she is and let her walk her journey. Then it’s for freedom that Christ said it’s free.
Marilyn (17:57)
Yeah.
Brad (18:21)
And where the spirit is, there’s liberty. It’s not constraining pressure.
Marilyn (18:26)
And it doesn’t, you know, some people have asked when you extend grace, does this just give your spouse a license to just continue on in their struggle? And it doesn’t. It’s like God’s kindness leads us to repentance. And it does the opposite. When you quit,
Candace Nassar (18:32)
Right.
Candace Nassar (18:40)
It’s incredible. Yep.
Marilyn (18:45)
criticizing and focusing on these things and extend grace, you’re leaving room for the Holy Spirit to work. And you’ll actually see your spouse trying. I’m trying to put my key in the same place because he’s been nice about it. And I realized, hey, maybe I can put my key in the same place and he’ll know where it is. But it’s so, it actually, when Brad and I got grace and freed each other up,
It fueled us both to a faster growth in our marriage and relationship with the Lord. It did not slow it down. I know this is an example and it’s one that’s just, it was so clear to me when Brad came in from work one day and our middle child is the pot stirrer of the family and she could take me to places I never knew I could go in anger or frustration. You know what mean? She just, she can…
Brad (19:34)
She could send Mother Teresa into a custom fit. She’s good at it.
Marilyn (20:44.861)
No, but she was, she’s a little wired like her dad. But she just, I mean, was, I was just, he came in from work and I would just have spent, I’d had it. And she and I were, I was frustrated with her and Brad walked in and he just said, hey, Abby, let’s go for a walk around the block. And he could have looked at me and been like, why are you arguing with a five year old?
Candace Nassar (19:37)
boy, I wanna meet her.
Brad (19:39)
BLEH
Candace Nassar (19:59)
Mmm.
Marilyn (20:03)
You know, but he just immediately took her. And then I was just left to deal with myself. If he had pulled me aside and said, Marilyn, it would have started a fight and I would have been like, you have no idea, you haven’t been here all day with all five kids. Don’t tell me how to parent.
But instead, he looked at the situation, he took her for a walk. I felt so convicted of my part and how I wasn’t parenting well, he didn’t have to say a word. But his kindness and just jumping in and taking her on a walk, he came back. I was able to come down and say, Abby, will you forgive me? I’m tired and that wasn’t acceptable for me to handle this this way. And then I apologized to Brad, but had he pointed out my sin, I would have struggled longer.
Candace Nassar (20:28
Yeah.
Marilyn (20:47)
probably would have caused a fight but I did not you
Candace Nassar (20:48)
Sure.
Brad (20:53)
Now she did, as we walked out the door, did say, you said, this is my recollection, not hers, but my recollection was she said you’re rewarding her for being disobedient by taking her on along. And I thought, no, I’m breaking up a fight.
Marilyn (20:55)
you
Candace Nassar (21:03)
Well, you know, that’s a great illustration because I’m thinking about your chapter on criticism and how I mean, who ever responds to constant criticism about something they were not going to. We’re not going to change from that. That brings up defensiveness. That brings out all the wrong things, right? And so when we can step in and and I know I love this because so many women we
Marilyn (21:04)
bit.
Marilyn (21:09)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (21:22)
Right.
Candace Nassar (21:29)
with wanting to control and turn our husbands into something that we want them to be and that criticism, just constant criticism, and it just wrecks. It wrecks the home life. It wrecks everything. And so you’re speaking into that. You’re saying, how can I step ahead of that? can prayerfully every day God show me how I can show grace to my spouse and how
Marilyn (21:35)
Right.
Marilyn (21:41)
Mm-hmm. It does.
Marilyn (21:49)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (21:56)
Even, let’s talk about that for a minute. And in those criticism moments, how do we handle that?
Brad (22:01)
But one, it’s hypothetically your husband responds to the criticism. It’s more of a, don’t want to get in trouble, so I’m not behavior than I adore you, love you, and I’m doing this because I want to just show that for you behavior. So that’s at 1 Peter 3, when your husband’s over without words, but the beauty of your life, and in both husbands and wives, this is gender neutral, how many people have been frustrated in just the perpetual
Candace Nassar (22:17)
Mmm.
Brad (22:30)
verbal prompts have all of a sudden created change. Never. You know, never. You know, yes, when a friend can be trusted. So it’s not like you, you know, just let somebody drink themselves to death or anything like that. But in, but in the day to day scripture says to overlook an offense promotes love. And if you’re pointing out offenses, if, if to overlook an offense promotes love, what does pointing out offenses do? It does the opposite of promotes love. It harms love.
Candace Nassar (22:42)
sure.
Marilyn (22:46)
Mm-hmm.
Brad (22:56)
You know, so I think your point’s exactly right. You want to promote love. Now, Marilyn always shares that something just sticks with you. You can’t just let divisions play. You’ve got to deal with it. But in the day-to-day stuff, most of it needs to be overlooked.
Candace Nassar (22:56)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (23:04)
Right.
Candace Nassar (23:10)
Right. Yeah. Like the drawers going back to the drawers. Yeah. So really good. Okay. So let’s talk about how a marriage can affect the spiritual climate of the home. What do you guys see with that?
Marilyn (23:13)
Yeah, I’ll take the drawers.
Brad (23:13)
Yeah.
Marilyn (23:25)
Well, the spiritual is the only way. My relationship with the Lord is the only way I can offer grace. So really, the pursuit of the husband and wife of the Lord, you’ve got to be attached to the vine to offer grace to your spouse and your family. And it’s something that we’ve got to be reminded of on a daily basis. But that’s the only…
Candace Nassar (23:41)
Mm.
Marilyn (23:48)
That’s the only way to do this well is to be walking really close to the Lord. This morning I got up extra early and I was praying and I was praying for Brad and I was praying about Grace marriage because we did, we had a date last night and it was fine. It wasn’t a great day because Brad was struggling a little and we were talking about some stressful things that are, you know, with regard to work and I just started praying, Lord, that you’re in control, all these things, you know, and it just…
show us how to do this well, but even just praying for us wisdom and we don’t have to try and fix everything. The Holy Spirit does such a better job. So I don’t know, I kind of went to the flip of your question a little bit, I think the way to do this well is the greater we’re in pursuit of the Lord, the greater we’re gonna love each other well.
Candace Nassar (24:20)
Mmm. Yes.
Brad (24:34)
Yeah, the marriage, a great marriage is the fruit of close spiritual walks with Jesus of two people. know, so it’s like, I said how many people are abiding in the vine, they’re peaceful, they’re patient, they’re loving, they’re kind, they’re gentle, and they’re joyful, and they’re struggling in their marriage. Never, you know. So really, know, really it’s God softens us, God takes a heart of stone, make us a heart of flesh, God.
Marilyn (24:39)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (24:51)
Yeah.
Brad (24:58)
creates love in us and then we’re so loved it flows out of us to others and then the beauty of relationship is just a byproduct of the fruit of a close walk with Jesus Christ. It was when people try to create a good marriage apart from that, it’s really frustrating because you can’t do it and if you appear to do it, it’s just temporary.
Candace Nassar (25:16)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I was thinking about just, what do you do if your husband or I guess if a husband’s listening even it could happen and they’re not interested in spiritual things. How do you handle that?
Brad (25:30)
think scripture. First Peter three says, when your husband’s over, without words, but by the beauty of your lives. And it is ultimately like Marilyn, when I wasn’t pursuing Marilyn in our first year, I wasn’t walking close to the Lord, I was building a law practice. But Marilyn just said, I’m just going to do my best to be close to Jesus and love Brad well. And I will leave Brad to God.
Brad (25:52)
And Marilyn can’t save bread, Marilyn can’t change Brad, God can save bread, God can change Brad. So Marilyn just petitioned the Lord, tried to love me, and then tried to find full satisfaction in Jesus Christ because there’s really nothing she could do to change me.
Marilyn (26:09)
Well, and Christ said, came to give life, life to the full. So, and I do talk to women who have been loving a non-believing spouse for years. And that is so hard if just one spouse is doing this. But if even just one of the partners is in pursuit of the Lord and seeking to love their spouse, it does make the marriage better.
than if both aren’t, for sure. And so I would just say, do not tire or grow weary of doing good, for you will reap a reward in heaven if it’s not this side of heaven. And that’s a long journey. I just, and I can’t imagine a lifelong journey of that, but I know many godly women who have had that path and who’ve pressed on and…
Just pray that the Lord through it, even in the end, maybe that spouse is brought to the Lord for eternity because our lives are so short. We’re here, it’s a brief mist. And our marriages are so much bigger than about us. You know, it is about bringing God glory. So may you be fueled in that by you loving your unbelieving spouse and gaining your satisfaction and hope from the Lord and just.
Candace Nassar (27:12)
Mm.
Marilyn (27:24)
living in service to the Lord and just loving. May that bring you full life.
Candace Nassar (27:32)
Yeah, I actually, I actually have a very, very close friend who lives that out every day and she serves the Lord and he serves alongside her. He hasn’t really had that moment of surrender with the Lord, but, they’ve made each other better, right? Because she models that and so many people love and pour into him and pray for him and we just hold out hope.
Marilyn (27:45)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (27:53)
Mm-hmm.
Brad (27:53)
And Scripture says bad company corrupts good character. Well, really good character impacts people as well. You know, so, you know, if you are living a life of Christ and service and grace, it can’t help but impact your spouse at some level. When I’m around great people that just love well, it just makes me better. You know, I would just say sometimes when you don’t see the impact, there may be more impact than you realize.
Candace Nassar (27:59)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (28:19)
Yeah, very good.. So what would you say to a mom as we start to close to who feels like she’s failing or falling behind in her marriage?
Marilyn (28:30)
Hmm. You know, Satan’s the great accuser. He wants to, as moms, as wives, I think that is such a common thing we feel, like we’re failing. We’re not enough. We don’t measure up. And I believe in Genesis 2 in the fall when God said to the woman and to Satan, I will put enmity between you and the woman, between her offspring and your offspring.
I do feel like as women we have an even greater, I think, attack of these feelings than often men feel. And I think it goes back to the fall where we see that because offspring, Christ came from woman. And so I just, our hope is not in our performance. There’s only one perfect, and that was Christ.
Praise God that His perfection covers my imperfection, because we’re not going to be the perfect wife. We’re not going to be the perfect mother. Parenting is a modern-day black hole, a mentor once told us. You can never do enough or be enough. Each day we try to love the way God’s calling us to love. And don’t worry about tomorrow. Each day has enough trouble of its own. So if you’re just asking the Lord today, how can I love well? Just focus on today.
and know that you have a great accuser and don’t let the enemy, because there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. We’re gonna mess up, we’re gonna trip up and it’s been covered and we grow through the trials and each of us, if we’re in pursuit of the Lord and love him, he is sanctifying us. We’re being renewed day by day, so.
Candace Nassar (29:48)
Amen.
Brad (29:49)
And you can’t.
Brad (30:04)
And if you can’t really grow from a point of defeat, you I stink and I’m gonna try to do better, never works. I mean, so it’s like, if you just see a deficiency and you’re trying to fix your own deficiency, tell me how that’s going for you. You know, but if you’re, I’m a beautiful daughter of Christ in victory, inheritance secure, holy, blameless by the blood of Christ, amazing, wonderful, and I’m gonna go out and do some cool stuff, that works.
Candace Nassar (30:10)
Mmm.
Marilyn (30:30)
Mm-hmm.
Brad (30:31)
I’m a miserable sinner that falls short and I’m gonna try to do a little better today than yesterday. You just live in perpetual frustration, always feel like you’re failing. So my encouragement to moms and wives would be live from a point of victory, not a point of defeat.
Marilyn (30:46)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (30:47)
So good. All right. So I thought we’d try this really fun thing to end the conversation today. I’m calling it the lightning round. And so I’m going to ask you guys just give me one quick thought or one word each of you when I mention these, prompts. Okay. One grace-filled habit. Every couple should start today. Go.
Marilyn (30:55)
Okay.
Marilyn (31:10)
dating.
Candace Nassar (31:11)
Mmm, that’s good. Do you have one Brad?
Brad (31:14)
I’d say five minutes every morning. Pray for wisdom on loving your spouse well.
Candace Nassar (31:19)
Good, good. Okay, one phrase couples should stop using.
Marilyn (31:26)
I wish you would.
Candace Nassar (31:28)
Mmm.
Brad (31:27)
You never or you always.
Marilyn (31:28)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (31:28)
Both really good. One phrase couples should use more often.
Marilyn (31:35)
I love this about you. Dot, dot, dot.
Brad (31:40)
Let’s have sex.
Candace Nassar (31:40)
Yes, I just read, I just reread the sex chapter last night and boy that’s yeah, that’s a good one. Okay, a simple date night idea that works even in busy seasons.
Brad (31:44)
Okay.
Marilyn (31:52)
I think getting coffee together and sitting face to face is huge. It’s just a simple day, especially in the winter when it’s cold, you’re more limited.
Brad (32:02)
If it’s not cold, I’d just say long walks, you know? Because ultimately, mean, great marriages occur from a lot of time together. And we always say that time is a container of marriage grows in. You want a big marriage, give it big time. You a small marriage, give it small time.
Marilyn (32:04)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (32:10)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (32:16)
Yeah, so we say the grace plus intentionality and outside of our relationship with Christ dating is the number one best thing we do for our marriage.
Candace Nassar (32:16)
Mmm, I love that.
Candace Nassar (32:24)
Yeah, you guys have been consistent with that all the way through.
Brad (32:29)
And give grace in your dating too, because it’s like, know, we sometimes, everything has to be so stinking great. And it’s like, most dates aren’t just great. mean, it’s just, you wish they were, but they’re just not all great. The key is just putting in the work. I mean, it’s like, you’re healthy, because you discipline yourself to exercise every day. You have healthy marriage, you discipline yourself to spend time in marriage consistently.
Marilyn (32:31)
Mm-hmm.
Brad (32:53)
Don’t put so much pressure that we have to this deep connection. It has to be wonderful. We have to this romantic joy. No, we are spending time together because we love each other and marriage is important. And over time, it works and you’ll have a great marriage.
Marilyn (33:06)
Right, and don’t be surprised if it’s hard to date. It’s hard, it’s hard to carve out the time, it’s hard to prepare, it’s hard to plan, and if it’s hard, that’s okay. Marriage is worth the work.
Candace Nassar (33:09)
Mmm.
Candace Nassar (33:16)
Yeah, and you guys have some great ideas in the book about how to handle childcare and all that kind of thing. really good stuff. Okay, We’ll end with this. One scripture you lean on in your own marriage.
Marilyn (33:21)
Mm-hmm.
Marilyn (33:29)
okay, well, while I was a sinner, Christ died for me. That’s when I scream at myself when my flesh starts to rise or I start to get offended. A little thing, and I think, nope, this is bigger than me. Our marriage is bigger than us.
Brad (33:42)
to the kind of mama one sin, sin will have no dominion over you because you’re under grace, not law, Romans 6:14 and Philippians 4:8, whatever’s excellent, praiseworthy, know, true dwell on these things, both, both in your marriage and your spouse.
Candace Nassar (33:59)
Guys, this has been such a great conversation. I’m so thrilled that we got to get together and I just thank you so much for your time. I know our listeners are gonna love it and we’re gonna put all of your information in our show notes and we just look forward to seeing you again.
Marilyn (34:16)
thank you. Yes.
Brad (34:16)
but I’m thankful for you and your ministry and thanks for pouring your life out to benefit others.
Candace Nassar (34:21)
Amen, thank you.
