Candace Nassar (00:00)
Well good morning it’s so great to meet you today I have with me Ashley and Dave Willis and what a rockstar couple you guys are with all that you do for marriages and your ministry your podcast we’re just so excited to have you today and this is a topic that is so near and dear to my heart just because of what I’ve been through in my own life.
And so I know you’re really gonna bless our listeners. And if you could just both just quickly tell us a little bit about your story and how you came into marriage ministry.
Dave And Ashley (00:32)
Yes, and thank you so much for having us, Candace. We’re so excited to be here and we love what you do to just help families. I mean, we all, we’re all in this together, right? But as far as who we are, we are the Willis’s parents to four amazing boys, raging in age as of right now from 11 to 21. And we live in Augusta, Georgia and we’ve been doing marriage ministry for over 12 years. And we have a podcast called the Naked Marriage Podcast and we’ve written many books and we travel around the United States.
Candace Nassar (00:40)
Mmm.
Dave And Ashley (00:57 )
and try to do our best to encourage marriages. Cause we believe, we don’t believe that there’s necessarily any marriage experts out there and it certainly wouldn’t be us, but we consider ourselves marriage encouragers because we all need encouragement. yeah.
Candace Nassar (01:10)
I love that. Very good. Very good. And so why don’t you tell us, was there a particular season in your marriage that you decided to make the switch to what you were doing into this marriage ministry?
Dave And Ashley (01:21)
Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say it happened about 12 years ago. We’d been in church work, really all of our marriage, worked with youth, worked in a lot of different capacities. And through it all, we’d just seen that, it seems like broken marriages or hurting marriages are the stem issue for almost every issue people face. Whenever they wanted to meet with us for counseling or prayer requests, if it wasn’t directly related to their marriage, you could almost pull the thread and trace it back.
Candace Nassar (01:49)
Mm.
Dave And Ashley (01:49)
to a broken marriage issue somewhere. And we just thought, man, this is so foundational. By God’s design, this is so foundational. And how can we help with this? We didn’t know where to start, but we wanted to help even beyond our own church. And so we started doing social media content. We started just creating resources. It was very small, very homemade. But through that process, we were learning because people from around the world started writing us and asking for prayer, asking us questions.
Candace Nassar (02:13)
Mm.
Dave And Ashley (02:15)
that would point us back to having to do the research and figure out, what is the answer to that? What does the Bible say about that? And so for the first couple of years, we were just learning. We didn’t even realize God was equipping us to do this full time. We just felt the burden to help in any way we could. And after a couple of years of it growing organically, it got to a place where we just realized, hey, this is something we’re called to and we’ve got to really focus on it. And so for the last 10 years or so, we’ve been full time doing marriage ministry and
It’s looked different over the course of those 10 years, we’ve loved the privilege of getting to work together and getting to, like Ashley said, be an encourager hopefully to lot of couples.
Candace Nassar (02:51)
Yeah, what a blessing. Everyone needs that. And why do you think that is? I mean, what is it that’s been happening in the past 10 years that’s just made it so necessary for couples to hear this Christ-centered marriage approach?
Dave And Ashley (03:04)
Well, I think that there’s so many, especially young people out there who’ve just not seen healthy marriages. I mean, we were just meeting with a lovely couple yesterday and they said they realized that they found themselves at a crisis in their marriage. And they said, as they pulled that thread, like Davis was talking about, it comes down to, they said, you know what? When push comes to shove and we’re facing just real life troubles, we don’t even know how a healthy marriage handles that because we’ve never seen it.
And so I think there’s so many of us out there that we’re trying to do marriage God’s way, but we don’t even have something tangible to point to necessarily. so, part of our job is we want to give people just a view into how do we work through these marriage problems? mean, one of our greatest privileges on the Naked Marriage podcast is that we get to talk about things and we hope that it’s not what we say necessarily that…
that makes the biggest difference. It’s really what they say to each other, because we’re hoping to give them language. We’re hoping to give them, you know, a dynamic where you can see, you know, real hard conversations talked about in a really healthy way that can really move them forward and not backward. Because we’re in a time where less and less people are getting married. They’re choosing just to have a partnership maybe and live together, but they’re so scared to make this commitment. And we want people to know that marriage is a great gift. I mean, it’s such a gift and God established it.
Candace Nassar (04:10)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (04:21)
there’s no perfect marriage out there. That’s not the goal, but we can all make progress and we can grow in every season. And so that’s really at the heart of everything that we do.
Candace Nassar (04:29)
I love that. mean, everybody needs encouragement and hope, right? And you’re giving them hope. And really, that’s what the Bible does, is it shows us God’s design for marriage. If we can do it His way as best as possible, then we can have a satisfied marriage. Not perfect. I love what you said. Not perfect, but satisfactory. And I can attest to that in my own life. I’m a cycle breaker. And I know that, Ashley, you and I were just sharing that you’re a cycle breaker as well.
Dave And Ashley (04:49)
I love that.
Candace Nassar (04:57)
So and you talk about this on different areas of your ministry. What are some of the common signs that we may be repeating cycles from our childhood?
Dave And Ashley (05:07)
Great question. Yeah, that is a great question. And I think by default, unless we’re really intentional about it, all of us repeat the cycles that we grew up learning. Whatever you grew up experiencing, however broken it might’ve been, your brain taught yourself that this is normal. Even if you hated it, even if you recognize in adulthood, that’s not good. Our default is to go back to it until we get really intentional about saying, Lord, heal me from the trauma of that.
help me to choose a different path and to carve out a different path. And for you cycle breakers who are doing that, man, you’re the world changers out there. And we just cheer you on and say, man, the world is a better place because of your courage in doing that. But all of us have to be mindful of where we go by default. Like when we get angry, do we just snap like our mom or our dad did to us? Or do we say, hey, I want to do it differently. I want to, when I feel those triggers coming on, I want to respond differently.
Candace Nassar (05:38)
You
Dave And Ashley (05:58)
And to just be a safe place for your family where your family has the right to approach you and say like, hey, that wasn’t cool. Or that way I felt what was going on there? Like, let’s talk about that because that didn’t seem like you, that didn’t seem, and it also was kind of wounding to me.
And so like, let’s really talk about that and don’t get defensive when your spouse especially comes to you with something like that, but lean in with curiosity, because they’re seeing your blind spots. They’re not trying to just beat you over the head. They’re trying to help you become the best version of yourself. And Ashley’s done that for me a lot, even though I grew up in a healthy home, not perfect, but a really healthy home, but I still have all of my quirks and brokenness and all of that. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so I’m trying to not break the cycle the other way of going from a good example and then becoming a bad example. And so all of us have to be really mindful.
Candace Nassar (06:38)
Well, we’re sinners. We’re all sinners, right?
Candace Nassar (06:49)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (06:50)
We do, and I think, you know, kind of some other signs is if we’re constantly trying to turn our spouse into this other person that they’re not, because maybe that’s how mom did it, that’s how dad did it. Or there’s just deep, deep insecurity that’s coming up a lot because we’re holding ourselves to maybe a standard that we saw in the home, but it’s not living, you it’s not really authentic to us. Because what we need to realize is when a husband and wife come together, yes, we come from our two different families.
and those patterns, healthy and unhealthy that we bring into the equation, but really God is establishing something new through the two of us. And so we don’t have to just do it my family’s way or your family’s way. It’s like, what has God called us to? And that was something that I really struggled with in the beginning of our marriage. In fact, I I would even say I did not realize some of the unhealthy patterns that I was really prone to repeating until I moved out of my home of origin and was living on my own.
Candace Nassar (07:25)
Right.
Dave And Ashley (07:46)
and just kind of catching myself falling into those patterns. But as a kid growing up in that home, in a wonderful home, a loving home, but just with some unhealthy things, I remember kind of having that default time where I was, you know, getting ready to kind of be dominant and lash out at Dave and almost trying to control Dave, which is similar to the house I grew up in. And really quickly, the Holy Spirit, like thank God, convicted me and was like, whoa, you do not want to do.
Candace Nassar (08:10)
Mmm. Mmm.
Dave And Ashley (08:12)
this, like you need to break this pattern. And so what I did, cause it really sent me into kind of an identity crisis. Cause I thought, well, gosh, I don’t even know how to do this. Like this is all I know. Women for generations have been dominant in my family. Women for generations have been anxious and have been controlling because you know, people who want to be dominant and want to be controlling, it’s usually deep, deep woundedness and insecurity and brokenness within that individual. And I just knew I needed to get help. so, you know, early in our marriage, we sought a counselor.
Candace Nassar (08:13)
Right.
Candace Nassar (08:34)
Right.
Dave And Ashley (08:40)
Like we went to a counselor and that counselor handed me the book Boundaries and was like, first and foremost, you need to have healthy boundaries with your own family. Cause there was some stuff going on with my family. And you know, through a long period of time and through the establishment of boundaries, God did a great work there. And we were able to find our footing as a couple, but also have a healthier relationship with our families. But I remember just in that time, I truly, some of these things that might seem obvious to some of the listeners, you know,
Candace Nassar (08:41)
Smart.
Dave And Ashley (09:07
were not obvious to me because again, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And so I had to be teachable. And that was something I really had to dig deep into my faith just to learn. Cause we have to humble ourselves and say, there’s a lot I don’t know here. I need to learn. And with God’s help, we were able to learn a lot of how to communicate in a healthy way, how to have a partnership, how to submit to God and to one another and to thrive as a married couple.
Candace Nassar (09:11)
Sure.
Candace Nassar (09:34)
Dave, how did you feel in those beginning times when she was trying to control you? How were you able to navigate that as you began to get the counseling? Was that obviously pivotal for you?
Dave And Ashley (09:44)
Absolutely. And it was also kind of jarring and unsettling because I’d not grown up seeing that. And so I wasn’t sure how to respond because I’d never experienced it before. I’m like, wow, this is, this feels wrong. In fact, I recognize it is as immature as I am. I recognize that this is unhealthy, but I also don’t have any framework for how to deal with this because I’ve never seen it before. And I was dealing with my own issues too early in our marriage. I had brought in a secret struggle with pornography.
that I had not confessed. you know, when that finally came out, that created a lot of trust issues and, really made the cycle for a short time kind of get worse because her anxiety, which she was already experiencing, got deeper as a result of my sin. And, and there was a bit of a gap there in rebuilding trust and all the things. And we’ve talked at length about all those things. So I won’t, you know, spend the whole episode doing a deep dive into that, but those early years of our marriage, we were both.
doing our best to unlearn some bad habits, to start learning some new habits and to figure out like, okay, with both of our unique personalities, our homes of origin, which were vastly different, how do we create something new? Because the moment we got married, we created a new family by God’s design, even though we’ll always be connected to our families of origin, this is something new. What is God’s vision for this family? And how are we going to do it his way? And we dove in.
Candace Nassar (10:41)
Mm.
Dave And Ashley (11:05)
realizing with humility, we don’t know what we’re doing. We looked for mentors, we got counseling, we dove into God’s word as best we could. And we just thought we, are going to sink if we do this in our own strength. And so those early years, he gave us a lot of grace and,, helped us to build a foundation, but it was a messy process. And I would say it was probably about five years in after the birth of our first child. And when we eventually moved away from.
Candace Nassar (11:10)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (11:24)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (11:30)
from our home state and kind of really did the whole leave and cleave thing at that point. I think that’s really the moment that our marriage was kind of reborn and all those hard fought lessons of the first five years we were able to start building on. Right, we started to see those seeds really take root. And I will say this, one of, I know I talked about counseling, I am a biblical counselor, went back to school years ago because I knew that I needed to learn more about this, but I also wanted to pay it forward in all those years that counseling made such a difference for us.
Candace Nassar (11:45)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (11:58)
But I think even beyond counseling, think that surrounding yourselves with some healthy, not perfect, but healthy marriage examples is huge. And for us, we got involved in youth ministry at our church just as volunteers. we were around, we didn’t realize it was like the very thing we needed, but we were around some peers, like people who were also young marrieds like us, but also people who were 10 years ahead of us or even 20 years ahead of us. And we’re still in relationship with those people today. But when I look back,
Candace Nassar (12:20)
Yeah.
Dave And Ashley (12:24)
during that time when we felt so like, what are we doing here? We had people to look to and really learn from, and that made such a difference. And so I would encourage the listeners, look in your church, look in your community for those marriage examples. I mean, you might have them in your family as well, I hope so, but even if you don’t, they are all around you and they are more than willing to teach you what they know. Well, and fight for community. And Candace, you’d ask kind of about kind of things that are missing now. I feel like
Candace Nassar (12:48)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (12:51)
That’s something that’s really missing now. And I was reminded that Ashley mentioned this young couple we were working with just yesterday who, you know, they’re, they’re leaders. They are, they’re known, you know, on social media by a lot of people and all those things, but they just very vulnerably said, we have a lot of people who know us from afar, but really there’s almost nobody that knows us up close. Like we’re not in community. And it was so heartbreaking to me for them. And also.
Candace Nassar (13:13)
Mm. Mm.
Dave And Ashley (13:19)
just the epidemic of that happening in our world, not just of young people, but of all people. We’re connected. You might have thousands of friends on social media, but how many people really know what you’re going through and are doing life with you and are close enough to you to call you out when you need it and to pray specifically for you and to care. And we need that by God’s design, we need that. And that’s what’s missing. And that’s, think Satan’s game plan is to isolate. He tries to just isolate us.
Candace Nassar (13:45)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (13:46)
We need community. And I think that the biggest thing that helped us early on and that we still fight for to this day is to not just be kind of like vaguely known as a persona by people that we might never meet on this side of heaven, but to be really deeply known by people up close to us starting in our own home and then also the community around us, because we all need that. And we’re only gonna be the best versions of ourselves when we really fight for that. It doesn’t happen by default. Like we have to…
We have to forge community, not just try to find community. We have to really work at it.
Candace Nassar (14:17)
love that so much and and I have to just interject that that’s that’s why I started MomCube because it was the when I was early I became a believer in a Bible study for moms and I surrounded myself with moms and families that I was like I want that and and the community to this day I see these moms are I get emails from all over the country where moms are like I’m lonely I’m isolated I need spiritual connection and guidance and biblical
Dave And Ashley (14:34)
Yes.
Candace Nassar (14:45)
encouragement and so that’s that’s why we do what we do as well and so that yeah that’s a huge I couldn’t agree more and the other thing that I love
Dave And Ashley (14:52)
And you’re doing a great job with that just to. Yeah, you’re doing a great job. So keep it up.
Candace Nassar (14:55)
Thank you. Thank you so much. And the other thing I want to address is you’re saying something, a couple words that I like to harp on and that is you’re teachable and humble. And I always, see, a matter of fact, marriage just fell apart in my family and it is so disheartening. I see such a, I see a lot of, know I’m at fault, but not teachability. And I think.
Dave And Ashley (15:20)
Yes.
Candace Nassar (15:20)
You know, that really, having someone speak into your life and be teachable and open and being able to see and hear from the Lord is key. And that helps me transition into the next section that I want to talk about. And that is breaking a cycle is so much more than behavior change. It is heart change.
Dave And Ashley (15:40)
Yes.
Candace Nassar (15:41)
that’s where God has to really get in there and do the work because we can say, okay, I’m gonna change this for a week. I mean, we wanna change it and it lasts for a week, right? So can you talk about that a little bit?
Dave And Ashley (15:51)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that really is the root of it because there’s a whole lot of self-help out there. I mean, it’s hard to scroll through any of my feeds without somebody trying to tell you if you’ll just do these things, then everything will be better. And there are certain, we can make incremental improvements in our health in most parts of our life just by tweaking our habits, certainly. But to really become the people God want us to be, it’s impossible to do it.
in our own strength. It’s just impossible. We need the Lord’s help. We need a savior. And the good news is Jesus already did all the work. Like he already paid the price. He said it is finished. He offers it to us freely. And the more we lean into him, the more peace we have in our lives. And I’m saying this as a guy that’s like a recovering, just over worker and over thinker. When you read the Bible, Jesus never says like, you’re not doing enough. And, you know, it’s always
Candace Nassar (16:33)
Mmm. Mmm.
Candace Nassar (16:38)
Mmm.
Dave And Ashley (16:39)
come to me those who are weary and let me give you rest. And what an invitation, what an invitation that Jesus himself, our savior, our creator is inviting us to say, hey, you know what? I see how hard you’re working, but what you really need is to just rest in me and find your identity in me and not in your striving. And certainly when we work, we need to work hard and work so hard to life, but it’s not our identity.
Candace Nassar (16:42)
one of my favorites.
Dave And Ashley (17:01)
It’s not this never ending treadmill that we can never get off of. And so many people, and I felt like that before my health gave out 10 years ago from living a, unsustained lifestyle like that. had a thyroid disorder. mean, just all kinds of stuff started happening to my health. And it was my body’s way of saying, Hey, God designed you for peace. And you’re not, you’re not living that way. And so, don’t do what I did and wait until your body’s just shuts down on you.
Candace Nassar (17:11)
Mm.
Dave And Ashley (17:25)
start embracing that peace early and at your relationships, every part of your life will benefit as a result. I couldn’t agree more. And I think in order to have that heart change, we need to have more margin in our life. We live in a society that says the busier you are, the more important you are. Keep on grinding, keep on hustling. And again, I reiterate what Dave says, work hard, but also model what Jesus did. And he had a Sabbath and he didn’t let people always make his agenda. He was like, no, this is what God’s called me to. And so how much more so do we need a Sabbath?
And so I just think what does that look like? Look at your calendar and really ask yourself as a single person or as a married couple, like what really needs to be on here in this season and what can I say no to or not right now? Well tell them the three C’s because Ashley has this thing about, think about the three C’s and it’s Yes, the three C’s. Well that is one of them. So the first one, calendar. Look at your calendar. I think no is a powerful word.
One of my favorite books back in the time of my life with having young children where I just felt just over-committed, overwhelmed and all the things and really airing on burnout, if not already burned out, is I read this book by Lisa Terkers called The Best Yes, and it’s from probably like 10 years ago, but I still recommend it today. And it is so good because it helps you to let your yes be your best yes and your no or not yet to stand, you can stand by that and make more room for those good things in this season.
Candace Nassar (18:29)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (18:46)
And I think that we need to do that more. think so many times we let other people, other circumstances just roll the roost and we need to realize we have agency here. Like we have choices and just because we can’t do something in one season, it doesn’t mean we can’t do it in the next. And so, you know, it’s not everything all the time, so the second C is your community. We’ve already talked about that. Really leave room, make room for community. Don’t let it be on the back burner. Make room for a community. And the third C is…
Candace Nassar (19:00)
That’s right.
Dave And Ashley (19:12)
And I’m drawn to consuming. That’s right. What are you consuming? And so our mind, this, this really comes to consume the mom Q podcast. That’s right. That’s we’re telling people. a huge thing. Mom Q you are on the right track, but what our eyes and ears are taking in really affect how we look at things and really affect the state of our heart. And so we need to think about what am I watching or what am I listening to that is serving me or not serving me? What are you eating and drinking too? mean, what are you consuming and all of that?
You know, it’s gonna have an impact. so… It will, it will. And so, you know, we need to make space for prayer. We need to make space for reading God’s Word, meditating on His Word. I will tell you personally, during that season of anxiety and just this identity crisis, trying to find our footing as a married couple, one of the things that I did was I wrote down scripture on cards and I would post them where I could see them. And so I’d post it on my bedroom mirror, I’d post it in the bathroom, I’d post it in my car.
Candace Nassar (20:00)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (20:06)
And then I would literally just say that verse out loud if I was by myself, if I was feeling anxious, but also just committing it to memory because, you know, His word never returns void. And I’m telling you, I still to this day, you know, Proverbs 3:5-6 about trusting in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding and all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths. That is my life verse.
And in fact, when I sign books, we always put that, you know, life verse within our books because I think for real heart change, it takes trusting the Lord.
Because I think that we tend to not make space for all these things I just mentioned, because again, we’re trying to do all these things to make the change happen when really it starts with trusting God, reading His word, and allowing Him to do the change from the inside out.
Candace Nassar (20:51)
And guess what? That’s my life verse two, Proverbs 3:5-6. It is. Yeah, it absolutely is. Okay. So there’s, know there’s moms out there that feel stuck because they’re maybe they’re feeling like I’m doing all this and my husband’s not doing anything. What would you say to that mom?
Dave And Ashley (20:54)
Are you serious? Yay! I love it. That’s so awesome. I love it.
Dave And Ashley (22:12)
love to hear from an actual husband, to speak to moms who can maybe get an insight into what it’s like being a husband. and first off, just to empathize with you ladies, that is such a tough place to be. And so many women in particular write us and feel that. my husband’s not being the spiritual leader I want him to be. He’s not being present emotionally or maybe even physically. I feel like I’m in this marriage alone.
Candace Nassar (21:13)
Yeah.
Dave And Ashley (21:37)
and behind our kind of smiling family pictures on social media and Christmas cards, I just feel like I’m living as a single person almost, and that’s heartbreaking, and that’s not the way God designed it. And so what do you do? Each situation’s a little unique, and so I always hesitate to give kind of blanket advice to everybody when it’s something that’s so nuanced and complex as each relationship can be. But I would say.
Candace Nassar (21:54)
Sure.
Dave And Ashley (22:00)
First and foremost, pray. Prayer is not like a passive alternative for action. I think we have to look at prayer as an action that will also, God used to prompt us to additional action a lot of times, but prayer is powerful. So pray that God would give you the right mindset, the right responses, and the right words as you approach your husband and model for your husband by how you treat him the way you want your husband to treat you. Because in marriage, it’s not, I’m going to treat you the way you treat me. It’s, I’m going to treat you the way God treats me.
So God gives his best to us. He loves us when we’re unlovable. He pursues us when we’re unworthy. And now he says, now go love each other that way. And that is not saying that you need to allow for any kind of abusive behavior. Certainly not. But if it’s just a matter of he’s distant, he’s disconnected, start by trying to pursue him with the same love and grace God has pursued us with. Number two, I would say show gratitude. You know, men and women, we all respond to…
Candace Nassar (22:51)
Mm.
Dave And Ashley (22:53)
to gratitude when we feel like what we’re doing is seen and appreciated. We want to do more of it. I think it was James Dobson who said, rewarded behavior is repeated behavior, not just for kids, but for adults too. Like when, when we feel like, okay, I’m going to be praised for this or thanked for this or seen for this, we want to do more of it. So if your husband is doing anything, anything positive, praise and say, I appreciate how hard you work for this family. I appreciate that you mow the yard and you we don’t have, cause I would be terrible at it.
you do a great job and we would have to pay someone to do it. And I just appreciate what you do for our family. I thank you for taking Johnny to baseball practice. He loves that time with you. I love seeing the two of you connecting. Thank you. Just those little things where you just think, I shouldn’t have to thank him. That’s just what you’re supposed to do. Yeah, maybe, but when you choose to have gratitude, it changes the whole dynamic. It changes your own posture towards him.
Candace Nassar (23:35)
Hmm.
Dave And Ashley (23:48)
And potentially it could be one of the things that kind of melt his heart a little bit too. And so, it’s tough. would say if you’re just keep hitting a wall, try to encourage him to go to, counseling with you or something specifically to work on your marriage, just say, Hey, I want to, I want to be closer. Like, and I know that we can, I want to be best friends again. I want, I want this marriage to just thrive in every way. And I want to be the best wife for you. can, I want all those things.
Candace Nassar (23:52)
Sure.
Dave And Ashley (24:12)
And we don’t seem to be figuring it out on our own. So would you come with me to counseling and just keep asking? I know it’s tough and I know there are a lot of you that are just maybe rolling your eyes like I’ve done all that and more and nothing has happened. And I just pray for you. I just pray that God would keep giving you strength and grace as you’re in that dynamic. And patience. Because things don’t usually happen overnight. And that’s the thing with marriage is it’s
Candace Nassar (24:35)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (24:39)
a husband and wife and the Lord. And sometimes one partner’s really pursuing the Lord and a relationship with God and the other is just not for whatever reason. And then we’re in that waiting game and that’s where it gets really hard. And so I would tell a wife in that kind of dynamic, really every single day pray, Lord, help me keep a soft heart. Because I’ve talked to so many wives who their hearts just grown hard and you see why. I mean, when they feel like they’re just doing it alone, they’re like, why even be married? Like, I feel like I’m doing everything alone anyway.
And that’s where the enemy really enters in and just tries to make us grow harder and harder and more distant. And you see, you know, like that’s why there’s this epidemic of empty nest divorces because they raise the kids, they may stay for the kids. And then they’re like, I am out, job done, see you later. And there’s just so much heartbreak in that. Cause the greatest thing we could give our kids is the gift of a husband, like a mom and dad who love each other, who aren’t perfect again, but who are fighting for each other and not against each other.
Candace Nassar (25:17)
Right.
Dave And Ashley (25:35)
And fighting alone is one of the hardest dynamics. I mean, we have a teaching on this where we call it living out your marriage in the love seat or the me seats. And so we talk about three different dynamics that God wants us to live in the love seat together, where we had unity, but not necessarily uniformity. That’d be boring anyway. But many times it’s a husband or wife in the me seats, where it’s just all about me, it’s his and hers. It’s just about what you’re getting out of the relationship. But the hardest dynamic is where one of you, in this scenario, you’re talking about the moms or the wife.
is in the love seat trying to fight for her marriage, trying to read the Bible, trying to go to counseling herself with all the things, but her husband’s over there in the me seat. That is so hard. But at the end of that talk, we talk about how it can feel like you’re alone, but really you’re not because the love seat is God, because God is love. And so you rest in that love, you surrender to Him daily, all those feelings. And you have to feel your feelings. I think journaling is huge here.
Candace Nassar (26:20)
Mmm.
Mm.
Dave And Ashley (26:28)
Just processing it, not stuffing it down. think stuffing it down really leads us to have that hardened heart or that becoming kind of a shell of a person. And again, that’s where community comes in. If it’s not counseling or maybe in addition to counseling, join a marriage group, join a group of fellow wives. I mean, there’s so many resources these days and sometimes just hearing somebody else say, you know what? I walked through that too and here’s what helped me.
Candace Nassar (26:52)
Yeah, I mean, I can honestly speak into this because my husband has never wanted to go to counseling. And so I’ve been to counseling and I’ve brought stuff home and sometimes it went over and sometimes it didn’t. But I prayed and I prayed and I prayed. And we are now in a season after 35 years of marriage of being in the greatest place that we’ve ever been. And it’s it’s all the things that you’re saying, honestly.
And so I couldn’t agree more. And I just love what you guys are all about. And so let’s transition now into talking about how that affects the family. When we are cycle breakers in marriage or not, what does it do for our children? Because I just listened to y’all’s podcast on Legacy and I loved it.
Dave And Ashley (27:33)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (27:34)
Yes, thank Thanks for listening. Yeah, thank you. Well, I think one thing is realizing that working on your marriage and prioritizing your marriage, isn’t at the expense of your children. It’s actually a gift to your children. And that’s by God’s design. God designed that our most important relationship on earth is first and foremost with him, with the Lord. But then second to that, and only second to that is our relationship with our spouse.
Candace Nassar (28:02)
Mm-hmm.
Dave And Ashley (28:02)
And what happens often is, especially if you feel the disconnect from your spouse, you kind of pour everything into the children. You look to them for the emotional connection that you should be getting from a spouse. And when that happens, it creates this broken dynamic that can lead to codependency. can sabotage your kids’ future relationships. And I understand how it happens. And so I’m not trying to sound judgmental. I’m just pointing out what can happen. But when you really focus on the marriage,
it gives the kids a great sense of security in seeing mom and dad prioritizing their relationship, knowing that they’re good, and then helping them to be excited one day to be married themselves. And so it creates that kind of generational legacy of looking at marriage as a gift in a world where so many people, like we said at the beginning, don’t necessarily have a good example of that. So when you prioritize your marriage, it’s actually gonna make you a better mom and a better dad.
And we try to remind ourselves of that when we tell our kids, hey, it’s date night and they’re like, we wanted to do this or that. And it’s like, I know, we’ll do that tomorrow.
know, tonight’s, you know, mom and dad’s night and modeling for them, making it a priority, I think really gives them a sense of security. I think so too. And I just want to share some dear friends of ours, probably about 10 years ago, were just finding themselves, they were like 15 years married, just nothing like catastrophic had happened, but they both had kind of grown a little hard towards each other. You know, the wife felt like she was, you know, doing all these things that…
weren’t appreciated and the husband felt like he was doing all these things that weren’t appreciated. And they found themselves at first arguing, but then not even arguing, which is there is something worse than fighting all the time. What’s worse is apathy where you’re just, you’re like, well, why even fight? You know? And so they knew it was like lights on the dashboard of their car. If their marriage was a car, it was like flashing all the lights and they didn’t just say, well, this is just who we are now or let’s call it quits. They went to counseling and at the time their kids were old enough to know that, okay, things are different here. And as much as they tried to hide it from the kids, they realized, you know,
Candace Nassar (29:34)
Yeah. Mmm.
Candace Nassar (29:43)
yeah.
Dave And Ashley (29:56)
They’re bound to feel this. know, kids, feel stuff. And so I was talking with my friend and she was like, you know, we’re going to counseling. It kind of gets messier before it gets better, but she’s like, we’re in this. And she’s like, how do I, you know, my kids know something’s up, but I don’t know how to handle that. And I said, well, at an age appropriate level, let them know, mom and dad are talking to a counselor because we love our marriage and we love you guys. And this is a healthy part of, of life is getting help. And they did. And I’m telling you, it took about
probably a year of almost going weekly to counseling, doing retreats. I think they were involved in a marriage group at their church, but they were open with their older kids about this. And I’ve seen such a change in this family and they are just amazing. And their kids have learned so much on how in relationships, how do you handle conflict? If you don’t know how to handle something, you can reach out for help. And to me, I think there’s such a learning opportunity in that I think.
I think sometimes as husbands and wives were afraid, like, my gosh, our kids are going to be worried. But it’s like, that’s why you have hard conversations. And that’s why you let them know, like, we’re in this, but sometimes we need to reach out for help and we’re learning all kinds of things. I mean, obviously there’s, you know, there’s discretion here, but I think that even just having age appropriate conversations about that can really teach your kids a lot about how to have a healthy and thriving marriage.
Candace Nassar (31:05)
Mm-hmm.
Candace Nassar (31:11)
Mm hmm. Yeah. And set up a role model of, know, it’s never too late to get help. And then, of course, it gives the kids that security going forward. So, well, guys, as we start to wrap this up, if you had one thing that you would want to say to a mom today about this conversation and how to what you would want them to take away, let’s let’s hear from each of you.
Dave And Ashley (31:14)
Yes.
Dave And Ashley (31:35)
Well, I would just start by saying you are a good mom and I can say that without knowing you personally, but what I know about you is that you have just taken time. You’ve just taken the last 30 minutes or more to listen to something specifically to be a better mom, a better wife, a better follower of the Lord and
Candace Nassar (31:39)
Hmm.
Dave And Ashley (31:55)
God sees that, he sees the effort that you’re making, he sees the investment that you’re making, he sees the desire of your heart. And in a world that’s like always telling us, hey, we don’t measure up, there’s all these other things I need to do, and maybe your temptation after listening to this is just feeling, man, I’m not doing this right, or it just feels like it adds more to your list of things you’re not doing. Before you know anything else, I just want you to know God loves you, he is so proud of you, and you are a good mom. And thank you for being part of this MomQ community. Thank you, Candice, for the amazing example you’re setting in building this
community and being a cycle breaker. And so just without really giving any any more advice, I just wanted to, I just felt like I to give some encouragement and some gratitude because the moms don’t get nearly enough of those things. I love it. Preach it, sweetie. That’s great. I just want to add to that and say, even if you’re in a really, really hard season right now, just know that God does not waste anything. And on the other side of this,
Candace Nassar (32:32)
Encouragement.
Candace Nassar (32:39)
Absolutely.
Dave And Ashley (32:49)
there is such strength that if we just push through, if we just take it one step at a time, that you will see him use this for your good and for his glory. And there’s something really beautiful in that. But I also want to say this, we wrote a book called Do Marriage Better, and it’s about seven simple shifts you can do to build more connection in your marriage. And the reason we wrote this book is because I think so many times we just feel overwhelmed. We’re like,
Well, there’s too many things that we need to change. There’s these huge changes that need to take place. So I guess we’ll just keep on existing because that sounds overwhelming. But I would just tell you, just even from this conversation, if you could just start doing one thing, just start doing that one thing, like start with gratitude, wake up every morning, ask God to bring something to mind that you’re thankful for in your husband, and then go to your husband and thank him for that and just try to do that daily.
Candace Nassar (33:23)
Yeah.
Dave And Ashley (33:35)
And just that alone will change the dynamic in your home if you do that consistently over time. I mean, just take it one step at a time. And once you feel like you’ve mastered that thing and it’s become helpful in the rhythm of your life, then introduce another thing. We don’t have to do everything all at once. In fact, that’s too overwhelming to even think about. So just start with one little simple shift and see what God can do with that.
Candace Nassar (33:55)
So good guys. This has been just life giving. I love it. We’ll put all of your how to find you your podcast your books and our show notes. So I just can’t thank you enough for being here. You guys are great. Thank you for your ministry.
Dave And Ashley (34:10)
Thank you, Candace. This has been such a treat.
Candace Nassar (34:12)
great.
